Paul Robinson: 0:07

Welcome to Listener Owned, the podcast that explores success stories across the co-optive sector. I'm Paul Robinson and I'm learning everything I can about co-ops, and in today's episode I got the chance to speak with Shaz Rahman about his experiences supporting multiple co-operative organisations in Birmingham as well as nationally. He's involved in a worker co-operative. He's involved in community benefit societies. He sits as a board director. He also represents a co-operative business within the governance of another co-operative and, to top it off, he even plays bass, guitar and keyboard within an artist's cooperative. He really is multi-talented and his thoughts and experiences within the movement are well worth your time.

Shaz Rahman: 0:53

I started my discussion with shaz by asking him to take me through each of the different cooperative organizations that he's involved with so I first got involved with burger friends, friends of the Earth, which is a basically an environmental campaign organisation based in Burglar City Centre, and that's a community benefit society. And so that's the first one I got involved with. And from there I then had an interest in energy, because that's my day job, and so from I then joined the board of Community Energy Birmingham, which is another community-manifest society and that one places, at the time, solar panels on community buildings. It's currently doing community advice. And then from there I then joined Cart Press, their board, which is a newspaper slash journal which has a monthly edition and an online website, and in that I sit on the board, and that one is a paid role, whereas the first two are volunteering roles.

Shaz Rahman: 1:51

And then, finally, I'm also part of the Co-op Group's NMC, which is the National Members Council, which is a governance committee which oversees the overall aims of Co-op Group. It's meant to be the moral compass, shall we say. And I'm also part of Central Co-op's Membership Community Council, which decides on some of the community activities. So 1% of Central Co-op's profits or surplus go into community activities and supporting the Co-op's movements and I sit on that council. And then the final one, which is a bit different, because it's a workers' co-op and not a co-op in the other sense, is Artifact, which is an artist's workers' co-op where all of the members are owners, so the same as 12 members, they're also owners and so they run it. So there isn't really a board per se, but every member is also has an equal say in how it runs.

Paul Robinson: 2:46

Wow, I'm not familiar with that last one. I'd love to hear more about that, about Artifact as well, but all of those sound fascinating. And just for full disclosure, the reason that we know each other, shaz, is through the National Members Council of the Cult Group, where I also sit. And just for full disclosure, I'll own that one up straight away. That's how we got in touch and I asked you to come on and to have this chat. But so NMC, the Friends of the Earth, birmingham. I must admit I assume that Friends of the Earth was a charitable organisation as opposed to I think you said it was a community benefit society. Yes, and I had no. Said it was a community benefit society. Yes, and I had no idea it was a co-operatively run. That was completely me.

Shaz Rahman: 3:31

Yeah, so a community benefit society is accepted as a co-operative by Cups UK, and where the difference is is that the benefit is not necessarily for individual members in terms of a return for them, but it's a return for the community. So we have have it's still one member, one vote. You pay your power, you do some volunteering or you pay your power, you're a monthly subscriber and you still get that vote. It's still everyone has an equal say. So it still has all the same practical benefits that having a cooperative structure has. It's just the benefits for the community rather than for the individual.

Paul Robinson: 4:06

Wow yeah, that's amazing and I assume that there's various. If that's friends of the earth, birmingham, I assume that there are. That is replicated across the uk and there are probably other local versions um chapters or branches that that others could join and do similar.

Shaz Rahman: 4:26

Yes. So Bergen Friends of the Earth is a bit unique in the sense that it's a bigger organisation than most of the other local groups. So you have the National Friends of the Earth, which is England, wales and Northern Ireland and that is based in London and basically has a national presence. And then across the country there are loads of local groups who are affiliated to the National Friends of the Earth but are run independently. And the difference with Birmingham, say to all the other local groups, is that we own a building in the city centre and we have an office in there, we have a cafe in there and we have a bike shop and meeting rooms. So that infrastructure gives us more of a basic, a bit of land in burgundy center which allows us to run things from, and we've had that building since the 70s. Wow, that's that's great.

Paul Robinson: 5:15

I can't wait to get. I love birmingham, such a great city and uh. Next time I'm up there I will try and get into your uh in to see what friends of the earth Birmingham are up to.

Shaz Rahman: 5:25

That sounds brilliant yeah, it's a 10 minute walk from new streets as a five minute walk from Wall Street, so it's a very easily accessible in the city centre.

Paul Robinson: 5:33

Amazing, that's incredible. And then you've also got the energy energy co-op in Birmingham. You said that's cooperative energies.

Shaz Rahman: 5:41

You said yeah so that's what that's community energy Birmingham and what we do there is.

Shaz Rahman: 5:48

Up until the feeding tariff, say, through COVID, we put solar panels on community buildings. So we ran free community share offers and in each of those share offers we raise money from individual members and we use that money to buy solar panels for the wonder community buildings such as a football stadium, a community building in a suburb of Birmingham. And the money we raised paid for the solar panels. And then the owners of the buildings then paid us a set rate for electricity and at the time it was seven pence a kilowatt hour, which was cheaper than the market price then. And it's still seven pence a kilowatt hour, which was cheaper than the market price then. And it's still seven pence a kilowatt hour 10 years later. And so you compare that to 20, 25, 30 pence. You're paying, yeah, if you're, if you're, if you're unlucky. So if you think they've got that price for 25 years and seven pence a kilowatt hour for electricity they use from us, what could that price of electricity be in, say, another 15 years? 50 pence, 60 pence? That's a good deal, isn't it?

Shaz Rahman: 6:52

Yeah, yeah. So from their point of view, it's absolutely amazing because they get really, really cheap electricity. From our point of view, we've reduced carbon emissions by displacing what would potentially be a building that's using gas more gas to provide electricity from power stations and using locally sourced sun.

Paul Robinson: 7:13

Wow, that's a triple win, isn't it? So your organisation gets financial benefits, the community organisation gets cheap electricity, the planet benefits from the sustainability aspect. I mean, there's just so many aspects of that that is beneficial to so many different stakeholders and parties. That's incredible.

Shaz Rahman: 7:35

How did that go? Absolutely, that model became more difficult when the feeding tariff went, but it is reviving now, and so we work in partnership with Big Solar Co-op. So they put a solar panels installation at a GP's practice in Castle Vale, which is quite close to where we put solar panels on the football stadium, and we help them do that. So we don't do that ourselves anymore at Green Energy Birmingham, but we support a bigger cooperative to do that now, because, basically, the sites just have to be much bigger and it's more in-depth than it used to be. The Finian tariff model made smaller buildings more viable, and now you've got to go to commercial level.

Shaz Rahman: 8:17

What we do instead, though, is, for the last six months, we've been doing home energy advice, so we've been giving people free advice for people who live in their homes and want to improve the energy efficiency of them, so we've been doing surveys. So, for example, quite a lot of people we've been speaking to want to get an air source heat pump. When their boiler breaks down and it goes, they want to move to a decarbonised heating source, and air source heat pumps are generally the most common ways to do that, and so we've been advising people as to a roadmap as to how to do that. It doesn't necessarily mean they're going to do it tomorrow or even next year, but when their boiler breaks down, at least they know how to get there. So you know you want to insulate your property first, you want to reduce the heat demand as much as you can and then, once you've done that, then a heat pump will be more efficient and it will work better.

Paul Robinson: 9:11

Yeah, yeah it's. I mean, they're not necessarily. Well, the thing is, replacing a boiler isn't cheap, is it? And so I know that people say, well, heat pumps can be quite pricey, but replacing a gas boiler doesn't come cheap, and in the long run it's it's. Uh, I can speak from experience. You know, we, we were fortunate to be able to get one installed, and it's worth it. It's definitely worth it over time that that, um, that investment pays back both, again, financially and sustainably. It's, um, again, it's a win-win, isn't it? Yeah?

Shaz Rahman: 9:42

yeah, I see you've got a heat pump. That's exciting. Yeah, yeah, uh, yeah, we did that when we moved in and it was quite high on our list of it's.

Paul Robinson: 9:45

Again, it's a win-win, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, I see you've got a heat pump. That's exciting, yeah, yeah, yeah, we did that when we moved in and it was quite high on our list of things that we wanted to make sure that we were able to do when we moved in. And it's just worth it, isn't it? When, like you say, you've got to make sure that you've got before that and you're not having that heat loss, because otherwise it's simply not worth it. But, yeah, we're really pleased with what we did and for anybody looking at getting one, I definitely recommend we've had some. We're very pleased with ours. Without naming any manufacturers, but do your research, but I guess, come to you guys and get some advice from you and find out more yeah, because up front the costs to install the heat pump are still much higher.

Shaz Rahman: 10:31

They can be eight thousand pounds, even with the grams, compared to two or three grand for a new boiler. And so you know, up front that is a lot of money. But over the space of 25 years if it hopefully lasts that long at least 10, 15 that they so far have generally lasted longer than the boiler does uh, the price, sorry, the price of electricity will go up. Gas heating will become more expensive as well, and at some point there'll be a tipping point where it becomes cheaper to run your house on electricity for your heating than it does for gas. Maybe that's five years time, maybe that's 10 years time, but there will be a tipping point and that's when heat pumps will become basically the much, much better option financially yeah but early adopters, though, like yourself, you've done a really good thing there and it works.

Shaz Rahman: 11:17

It can work. It's just you've got to be a bit more careful though. With a gas boiler, can you basically replace like for like, and people don't notice, notice the difference, whereas if a heat pump, you've got to get the specs right and you've got to design it right and you've got to be much more careful and you've got to change your habits as to how you use your heating system as well, and it's a lot of learning, but it is worth it, as as had glad to hear that you found it for yourself so that's community energy birmingham, and you also sit on the national members council of the Co-op Group, as I mentioned.

Paul Robinson: 11:46

So what does that involve?

Shaz Rahman: 11:48

Absolutely so. What the National Members Council is basically 100 people from across the country, including the islands and Northern Ireland, things like that. Anywhere where there's a store so like very, very islands in Scotland, like the Shetland Islands if there's a store there, it'll be represented. And what the Co-op Group LMC does the National Members' Council does? It basically acts as a governance committee for Co-op Group.

Shaz Rahman: 12:15

So Co-op Group has a board, it has an executive and the idea of the Co-op Group LMC is to hold them to account. So basically represent the members across the country and those members have a say. We meet quarterly in person and we have other meetings in between and what the NMC does is basically make sure that the views of the members of Co-op Group are listened to and their thoughts are basically made sure that when we make decisions as a cooperative in car group that we make sure that the cooperative visions sorry, the cooperative principles and values are held, and we hold and made sure that they are reflected in what we do in our day-to-day business yeah, yeah, I think absolutely my favourite part of sitting on the council is when we do get to come together in person and meeting up with other council members from across the country, as you say, from the islands of Scotland, from the southwest of England and Northern Ireland and the geographic spread across the UK, northern Ireland and the geographic spread across the UK.

Paul Robinson: 13:26

everybody's represented, all member owners are represented on the council. And just meeting with people from all over and learning that actually the member owners that they represent have the same interests at heart, the same values and principles that the member owners in the East of England that I represent have, and likewise you can talk to him more in a moment about the body that you represent, because you don't have a geographic constituency that you represent on NMC, but those member owners. I think there's that consistency of interest and values. No matter which store that is your local store, you still want to see quality, good value, products produced sustainably that match your values and in an organisation that's democratically run and owned. But you obviously don't represent a constituency. You have a different organisation that you represent and I wonder if you could talk a bit about that.

Shaz Rahman: 14:24

Yeah, so the reason I'm on the National Members' Council of Cork Group is that I'm a director of Cork Press. I'm a democratically elected director of Cork Press, and what Cork Press does is it's basically the journalism arm for the cooperative movement in the UK. So it has a website that everybody's free to view, and we also have a monthly journal, slash magazine, that goes out to members, and so Carpress. If you want to be an individual member, you pay your three to five pounds a month, then you get access to those things and you also get to basically get invoiced at the AGM. So I, as a director of a co-op press it's a co-op press is a bit of a interesting organisation because it's been around for a very, very long time and journalism as a whole is in a bit of a bind at the moment as to how to transition to the digital age, and so co-op press is currently undergoing that experience.

Shaz Rahman: 15:25

So you know, back in the day we had lots and lots of retail subscribers who would pay to support Carp Press and they'd get lots of magazines every month to give to their members. Now that model is changing. Digital is more important, getting more international members is becoming more important, and whilst we still get support and we very much appreciate it from the likes of carp group and central carp and some other retail carps, we're diversifying and we're trying to branch out and reach the whole of the cooperative world rather than just the uk, which is where we've traditionally had our journalism. And, on a side note, I I occasionally just be writing for carp press because we all go to events like Congress and across the party meetings and some of them have two or three things going on at once. So one person maybe the fourth or fourth journalist from Carpress can't cover all of the meetings. So I occasionally do some writing for Carpress as well and cover events.

Paul Robinson: 16:23

I didn't realise that that's incredible and I look forward to I'll look up some of your pieces and articles. And, yeah, didn't realise that that's incredible and I look forward to I'll look up some of your pieces and articles and, yeah, look out for that. Thank you. And some people may not be familiar with, or rather, what might be more familiar to people, is Co-op News, which is published by the Co-op Press, I believe Is that the relationship so Co-op Press is the publishing organisation and Co-op Press, I believe, is that the relationship so Co-op Press is the publishing organisation and Co-op News is the publication that people may be more familiar with.

Shaz Rahman: 16:52

Yeah, so Co-op News is basically the public-facing stuff we do. We do some other things like copywriting and some freelance reporting for other organisations, such as the International ICA meeting last year in Delhi, the International Cooperative Alliance meeting. We covered that on behalf of the organisation. But most of what we do that is public facing goes through Co-op News.

Paul Robinson: 17:16

Right and I'm a big fan of Co-op News. I'm a subscriber, a member owner myself and definitely recommend anybody who has an interest in the co-operative sector. The co-operative movement supports co-operative businesses and would like to find out the latest news about what's happening across the movement. I highly recommend that people check out and subscribe to Co-op News. Really, really fantastic publication doing some amazing work in the sector and movement. So, yeah, thank you for what you're doing with them.

Shaz Rahman: 17:46

Yeah, and increasingly we're becoming more interactive as well, so we're getting a higher presence on social media. So we're on TikTok now and Instagram and all those places, and so if you want to talk to us, it's very easy to talk to us in a much easier way than it used to be, because it used to be you'd email, you'd get a letter in, but now you can basically engage with places like Carpress easier way than it used to be because, you know, used to be an email, you'd get a letter in, but now you can basically engage with places like cult press on a daily basis if you're really keen.

Paul Robinson: 18:12

I see tiktok, maybe it's uh, I think I'm a few uh well, more than a few, I'm sure uh years older than you, shaz, and I haven't quite got into that yet. Uh, it's something I need to check out. I know it's where everyone is and maybe I just need to look at that. But it's good that Co-op News is there and I'm sure other socials as well.

Shaz Rahman: 18:31

So, yeah, I have to check that one out. Yeah, we're trying to reach the younger generations, and to reach them you've got to go where they are and play that tic-tac-toe where they are. So that's why we're going there.

Paul Robinson: 18:41

Absolutely Yep, going there? Absolutely yep, and uh, I'm just behind the curve so I'll get there. You know, give me some time I'll catch up. Um, so that's that's co-op press. Uh, as well as friends of the earth, birmingham community energy, birmingham co-op nmc.

Shaz Rahman: 18:58

And then you also mentioned a workers cooperative that you're involved with yes, so they're called artifacts based in south birmingham and it's a basic collection of maybe 10 to 15 artists, and we had a high street shop, practically, which was an art gallery and a bar until about 18 months ago. Then that closed and we're currently waiting for a new building to be finished on the high street called sergio co-operative development, and that will be a three-story building. On the ground floor will be artifacts, which will be the art gallery plus bar, and then you'll have loaf, a bakery and burger, bike foundry, a bicycle repair shop on the ground floor and then the top two floors will be 30 flats and there will be a affordable rates where, if you live there, you'll have a say while she lived there, because it'll be cooperatively run, and this new building it costs about £7 million is going to hopefully be finished by August. It has had some delays Construction projects often do and we'll be waiting around a bit longer than we'd like to, but hopefully come August we'll move in and we'll be able to keep going with those art projects, because at the moment we're doing bits and pieces here and there and events on an ad hoc basis, but it's very hard to do that.

Shaz Rahman: 20:13

We don't have a premises, and so in August, when we get a full-time premises again, we'll be able to restart where we were and keep going and do more artistic nonsense. My personal interest is in music, though, so I play keyboard and bass as a haphazard musician, and I play as part of bands that sometimes play there, and so it's a art gallery plus an experimental music performance space, and I've supported the music there.

Paul Robinson: 20:41

With every organisation you talk about, I learn new skills and new depths to your talents, shaz, this is incredible. So you play the keyboard and do you say bass as well?

Shaz Rahman: 20:52

Yes, yeah, okay, wow. So Artsfacts supports, say, art that isn't necessarily commercially viable in traditional settings. So we have lots of gigs that are a bit weird or art exhibitions that wouldn't get funded elsewhere. We'll put on and we support it all, basically by having a bar that's sustainable in the sense that you make enough money to pay all the bills and when we move into the new space, we have a better bar and a better gig venue and then hopefully it will be a much better space and we'll be able to keep it going wow, it's the weird gigs that are the ones that are worth going to, though, isn't it?

Paul Robinson: 21:31

so let's be honest, yeah, they're more personal.

Shaz Rahman: 21:34

Yeah, obviously you know staging gigs are amazing now that they're in place. But if you're in a room with 25 other people and you know 17 of them and you know some of the apps, you know those are personal connections you don't get if you're paying £300 to see some of the biggest artists in the world 100%, absolutely.

Paul Robinson: 21:50

I tell you what, when that new premises opens in August, I'd love to be there and have a look around, and that sounds incredible. The breadth of different sectors that you're getting involved with there the artistic side, the repair shop, getting to housing as well that's extremely diverse, isn't it, those different sectors that you're supporting? But yeah, I would love to find out more about that come August and have a nosy, and hopefully I'm sure there'll be some music that will be laid on as well and look forward to seeing in person some of your talents. That sounds fantastic.

Shaz Rahman: 22:28

Absolutely, you're welcome, so you could check out FensDF as well, the building there. They are in different parts of the city but they're easily accessible via public transport so I can see a Birmingham road trip, a Birmingham road trip coming on.

Paul Robinson: 22:42

I like the sound of that, that's brilliant. And, of course, I want to make sure that, whilst I've got you, we do talk about the 2025 International Year of Cooperatives, which has been announced by the ICA and the UN, and I'm just wondering what that means to you and the organisations that you're involved with, and what you think the potential could be from this new international year, the second international year of co-operatives that we've had in the last 15 years or so. And, yeah, what do you hope that we're able to achieve with this new international year?

Shaz Rahman: 23:18

Yeah, so it's an amazing marketing opportunity.

Shaz Rahman: 23:21

It's a really good opportunity to promote the co-operative movements because, with it being the UN, obviously the UN's a really good opportunity to promote the cooperative movement because, with it being the un, obviously the un's a massive organization that scans the whole globe and this, actually a cooperative, is a base of the opportunity for us to go.

Shaz Rahman: 23:34

This movement exists, it's really good and it can offer some solutions to some of the problems that we keep coming up against again and again, and so hopefully it will help raise the profile of the movement and help it become more mainstream. I know a couple of the larger cooperatives I'm involved in will be definitely doing a lot for it. So on the nmc in july there'll be congress, which is the big year oh sorry, it's the big conference for the cooperative movement every year and I know I don't know the details yet, they've not been announced, but we'll be setting a large delegation there and in that Congress there'll be celebrations for the year of the co-operative and it'll be a big opportunity to say co-operatives are wonderful. Please, if you're not involved in one, get involved in one.

Paul Robinson: 24:17

Absolutely. I'm looking forward to this year's co-op Congress. It'll be my first co-op Congress, and what a Congress to go to for my first one in this international year. I think it's going to be impressive and I can't wait to see it. So I look forward to seeing you there.

Shaz Rahman: 24:31

Is it Rochdale which is the home of the Crofton movement in the UK? So if you've not had the lesson yet, in 1844 the Rochdale pioneers carried loads of unadulterated food from Manchester to Rochdale and kicked everything off.

Paul Robinson: 24:49

So there'll be a big celebration around Rochdale to promotes the year of cooperative yeah, what 100, well over 180 years since those pioneers um began and uh, that, what has grown into a global movement and the global um business sector which is um, is something worth celebrating, isn't it? So I'm looking forward to being there for that and for anybody who's interested in following your footsteps, shaz and and well, I don't know about getting involved with four different uh boards, but if if someone's just seeking their first uh, their first one and thinks to themselves, is it worth doing um, which is something that you would recommend, and how could somebody you know look into to doing that for the first time? What sort of tips would you have?

Shaz Rahman: 25:38

Yeah, so I did a politics degree because I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life and I finished that and I was like I'm very interested in social justice issues. I volunteered for some outreach about ethical trade and I was interested in fair trade at university and when I left I just got a regular job and I was like, well, I want to still do some volunteering and some campaigning. And that's why I started volunteering with Birmingham Fancy Air. No idea, no idea. It was a cooperative. Just thought this is a campaigning organisation. I assumed it was a charity and it turned out it wasn't a charity, it was a cooperative, as as you said earlier, and so I volunteered with them and I saw what good work it was doing in Birmingham and how important it was.

Shaz Rahman: 26:17

And then I did some volunteering, campaigning, for a couple of years and after a couple of years I basically asked to be on the board or stand for election and I didn't really understand what that meant practically. But the first six months to a year was very confusing because obviously being on the board of an organisation that has a turnover of near six figures and owns a big building as your first step onto a board is quite daunting but you get used to it and everyone's friendly and they support you and you step from there to other co-operatives. But ultimately the reason why I joined that first board and joined other boards since is that it's important and it has an impact and you can. You can see where the difference is. Uh, people need to do the work to get things done and people like me need to do it, and if I can do it, so can everybody else. Uh, it can be a bit daunting but, uh, once you get your head around it, you know there can be some financial terms in there and they can. You know you're reading through papers and it'll take a while sometimes and but once you get used to it it becomes second nature and you'll learn the skills as you develop.

Shaz Rahman: 27:25

And also, uh, for me, because the first couple, uh, both ends of the earth community energy program have been volunteering roles and you know carp press, I'm a pay director, I get paid to be on the, the carp group, nmc and the central carp members of creative council, and so it opens up doors as well, it opens up networks and it really helps you develop your personally as your own cv and experience, and so I have a different day job and I'm getting a whole new world of experience and skills that I wouldn't have if I just had my day job. And so it's one. It's three reasons One, because everything comes in. Threes One, it's very, very important. Two, you get to develop great skills. And three, it's really, really good networking and can be a lot of fun, especially when you see the end results and you see the impact you make.

Paul Robinson: 28:17

Yeah, that third point about networking. And there's something about the co-operative movement, isn't there, that it's distributive and there's this multiplier effect of this network effect of you get involved with one organisation and almost without meaning to it leads to reaching out to other organisations, other co-operatives. It's that principle, six thing of co-operatives supporting other co-operatives and it just leads to other opportunities, doesn't it? Both in terms of learning opportunities, professional networking opportunities, economic and commercial opportunities. And for me that's just so exciting is that it naturally seems to have this organic growth, both personally for us individually when we get involved, but organisationally, those connections that people want to reach out, don't they? People want to connect and network within the movement and that's great that you found that that's the case sitting on boards.

Shaz Rahman: 29:22

Yeah, absolutely so. With, say, the co-op group NMC, for example, national Women's Council, there's 100 people on there who share the same values and principles, and you wouldn't join a committee like that unless you had a belief in those values and principles. And so you know before you arrive that obviously there are disagreements. Not everybody will have the same views on everything, but there's a baseline that we all share and with that baseline we know that we have certain values in common and that really helps. And so even before you arrive, you should hopefully know that the people you'll be working with have the same mindset as you.

Paul Robinson: 29:59

Yeah, yeah, it does bring people together and, as you say, with that common sense of values, those common principles that are shared and everyone in alignment, to hopefully achieve some really, really amazing things for the cult group on the N or or for the various boards that you're involved with. And I guess one of those, those network effects is, is the learning that you can, you've been able, to take from one board across to another board and and use those skills and share them. You know, distribute your knowledge across to friends of the earth, birmingham, take back things that you've learned either at nm or with Artifact and make sure that those learnings are to the benefit of all of those different organisations.

Shaz Rahman: 30:46

Yeah, so you'll tend to find that organisations of similar size have similar problems. So, for example, burger Friends of the Earth has four paid staff. Community Energy Programme has ad hoc energy advisors delivering advice at the moment, and so you know, when you've got boards of that sorry, when you have an organisation of those sizes you find that the board becomes too operational and it does too much of the doing and not enough of the strategy, and it's just an ongoing balance that you have to try to strike, whereas, say, the Cargrib, nmc or Central Car strategy, and it's just an ongoing balance that you have to try to strike, whereas, say, the car grip, nmc or central carps community council, you've got a very well developed team there and very well, very well resourced team, and so you have a different issue there. So you're not trying to do all the work yourself, because they're very competent and skilled people doing the work. It's just you need to help them, guide them in the right direction, and so the different size businesses, organizations and cooperatives have different challenges. So, artifact, for example, all of the people involved are volunteers, so everybody has to have a day job to be able to support that, and so you know that can be a struggle, a big capacity issue, but we do it because we love it, and if we don't do it, who's going to do it right? So if you believe in something and you're going to do it, it's really rewarding volunteering.

Paul Robinson: 32:02

I mean, that's my day job is is managing and recruiting volunteers, and it's something. It's something else that that you don't get, uh in in any other aspects of life, that sense of fulfillment that comes from, from giving your time freely for something that you believe in, for a cause that you believe in. And I'm a big, big supporter of of volunteering, and that's that's great that those organizations are able to tap into that willingness in the community in birmingham of volunteers who want to give up something for for that organization they believe in yeah, absolutely obviously you.

Shaz Rahman: 32:38

it's a lot of work and it can be tough sometimes and you can be under-resourced and try and do too much, but when it does work it's absolutely amazing and you see the difference it has. You know, when we're doing the gigs at Artsfactor, there's 60 people there in a room that should probably have 40 people in and they're all really enjoying it. And you can see the difference in local community when you talk to them in the streets the next week and they tell you how much they enjoy the gig and how much they value Artifact, because it's a very tough time for the high street and it's a very, very tough time for small, independent venues and galleries and venues for music. So to have those bonds and to be able to create them and keep them is incredibly important.

Paul Robinson: 33:18

That's what community is about, isn't it? Those venues, those groups and those people and those connections that make communities so valuable and that bring the best out of people. To want to volunteer their time freely and willingly is quite something. So, yeah, 100%.

Shaz Rahman: 33:39

But sorry to really answer your question from before, though, Co-ops UK. They're the lobbying body of the cooperative movement and they do have a checker on their website. So if you're looking for a cooperative and a member of Co-ops UK not all cooperatives are, but a lot are there is a simple map checker on the Co-ops UK website. So if they've registered as a co-op and they've told Co-ops UK, you can find them that way. Or just if you're in a big town or a city that there will be cooperatives around. You might just take some Googling and it also mostly depends on what you're interested in.

Shaz Rahman: 34:20

If you're interested in art, you know google art cooperative or google whatever your local art space is. If you're interested in energy, you know, do the same, and there may not be a completely cooperative solution, but there will be something in the sphere. So even if it's a cic, you know it's still good to get involved in something, and then you know maybe a little bit cooperative that develops from it. Uh, so, or charity, you know, but these things don't have to be one or the other. You know some charities are cooperative, some, some cic's, are also cooperatives and and so find, find an interest that you have and see what's around.

Paul Robinson: 34:56

Yeah, good advice. And, as you say, just because an organisation may not be quite 100% registered with Co-ops UK right now, I mean it's not to say they may not be in the future, certainly with influence, and getting involved and recommending to them hey, how about we actually register with Co-ops UK, how about we actually take that step from being a social enterprise and actually restructure so that we become a workers' cooperative or a community society, you know, so that we can take advantage of the government's ideas to try and double the size of the co-operative economy, doubling the size of the co-operative sector? You know, it's only going to happen by people stepping up and saying let's make this organisation we've got better by becoming a co-operative, or let's start this new business idea that we've got. Let's not just do it and own it privately, let's throw open the doors and run it democratically and have it owned democratically. And that's how we grow the cooperative sector.

Paul Robinson: 35:58

Isn't it the way that we all want to? But it's only by getting involved, as you said, by googling, by doing a search and saying you know what can I get stuck into. That I can support and I think it's incumbent on all of us to do that. Isn't it To reach out and find out what is in the community that I can get stuck into.

Shaz Rahman: 36:19

Absolutely. And to show you a point now about doubling the size of cooperative movements. So the government has that target. It's a bit woolly, doesn't really mean much in itself, but if we get lots more people cooperating and forming cooperatives and the support of their co-ops. Uk are programs where, if you're interested and you're unsure, there's funding available. There's a co-operative advisors available who can be funded to help you make those initial decisions because to be honest, it's quite complicated as a co-operative.

Shaz Rahman: 36:48

It's harder to set up a co-operative that is to set up a CIC. You're regulated by the FCA and that's a much more stringent auditing and checks and balances than a CIC would have, for example. And so if you're interested and there's a group of 20 of you who want to save a local community centre, obviously that's a very, very big undertaking and you'd have to have a big think about how you do it. But you know, across the structures for those kind of things there's lots of cooperative pubs out there in local villages where they're going to be closed down because they're not commercially viable in the previous models, but they've been saved and are now thriving Businesses that are full of cooperatives. I don't know the stuff that's off my head, but they're much more resilient and they're much more likely to survive the first five years of existence than a local PLC.

Paul Robinson: 37:39

That you know is see the success happen and want to uh to make to be this, to be that success, um, as the way to make it, to make it work. So, uh, yeah, 100 agree, that's fantastic, uh. So, shaz, is there a particular way that, um, that you like people to stay in touch with you? Do you have particular socials that you use that people can follow you on that you'd recommend, or is there a website?

Shaz Rahman: 38:20

well, yes, I have a website which is basically my name, so it's it's actually shaz ietcom, which means to be a pronounced society, so it's shaz and then iety dot com. And then I'm also on instagram. I'm I have some weird music on TikTok which isn't particularly useful for cooperatives but is a bit silly, and I'm on the usual Facebooks and Instagrams. If you search ShazRaman30, you'll probably find me. Is that reaching out to people who have done some of this stuff before is really helpful, because gaining mentors and gaining people who have made the mistakes already is the best way to avoid some of those mistakes.

Shaz Rahman: 39:07

So, yeah, so if you're, if you're looking for some advice, you know there are lots of people out there, like paul was new to the movement he'll be who knows a bit more than you, and then the next person will know a bit more than the next person after them. And I'd say, other than finding out on Google what the local groups are, just try and find some people involved in the movement, because we want the movement to spread and survive and grow. We are very keen for new people to join and to get involved. So, generally speaking, the people involved in properties are very keen to talk to you and to try and share their experiences and try and share the lessons that we've learned, some of them very tough and some of them very hard lessons, and we want the movement to grow.

Paul Robinson: 39:43

So we're happy to talk to people who are interested in the movement that's certainly been my experience in the last 11 months that all the people I've met since, having having got involved myself. So, um, yeah, very good advice there. Uh, thank you, shaz, and I'll make sure that we put those links to your socials into the show notes so that people can get in touch and reach out to you if they want to follow your music, get some advice from you, get some mentorship from you and and follow all of the great work that you're doing with all those those fantastic organizations you've talked to us about today. So, thank you very much indeed for your time and hopefully, if I can get up to Birmingham, I'd love to have a look at some of those buildings that you talked about, some of those premises with Friends of the Earth Birmingham, and also Artifact everything with your new building. That would be incredible.

Shaz Rahman: 40:29

Absolutely really enough to have you to show you around and to show you what we're talking about in practice.

Paul Robinson: 40:35

Brilliant. Thanks so much, azaz. Take care, cheers, bye. Shaz Rahman there talking about how he's thrown himself into supporting each of these very different organisations, each of which he really cares about, and I think there's loads in there for us to take away and for each of us to learn from. I love the diversity of sectors that he's involved with the environmental sector, with Friends of the Earth, birmingham. The energy sector with Community Energy Birmingham. Journalism with Co-op Press. The retail sector with Co-op Group, and also supporting artists with Artifact.

Paul Robinson: 41:18

I've learned that through curiosity and exploration, we really shouldn't limit ourselves or try to stay in just one lane, because the experience and the value that all of us can bring are transferable across the co-operative movement. I hope that you'll now consider which other organisations are in your own community and that could benefit from the wealth of knowledge and skills, that you'll now consider which other organisations are in your own community and that could benefit from the wealth of knowledge and skills that you have. Do get in touch with them. Please put yourself forward to get on a board, represent your community. I really hope that you do.

Paul Robinson: 41:53

I hope that you've enjoyed this episode of Listener Owned. I would love to know your thoughts about my chat with Shaz, and to get your feedback, you can text me or you can email me. Details for both are in the show notes, as are links to all the organisations that Shaz is involved with. I shall be back next time talking about more co-operative success. Do please join me then next time talking about more cooperative success. Do please join me then. Until then, please remember to support your local co-op and keep cooperating. Goodbye.