Interview with Rizoma

00:00:06 Unknown: I'm joined today by Joao and Bernardo from Rizuma Co-op in Lisbon. Thank you both so much for joining me. I really appreciate your time today. Um, would you mind starting by explaining a little about your cooperative? Uh, what exactly is it that you do? And yeah, tell us all about Resuma. Um, yeah. So we, um, so we're based in Lisbon, uh, Portugal and, uh, uh, Rizoma started about, uh, five years ago. Exactly. Actually it was January, 2020. Where it all began with a bunch of, um, neighbors and that wanted to kind of get together and, um, Essentially have access to quality locally sourced, uh, food produce. Um, and that wouldn't go through the, the main, uh, chain retailers. Um, and where you would. Have no idea about the origin or, or it was very difficult to get locally sourced quality organic food products, for example, at affordable prices. And so this is what started, it started in a, in a neighbor's conversation around the dinner table. Um. And there was, there was this discussion about what you could do. And ideally it was getting, doing things together. Um, And the idea of creating a buying group or some kind of distribution group of, um, from local farmers came up. And so this was, this developed further and, um, through inspiration of other organizations abroad, for example, uh, Park Slob Food Co-op or La Louvre. Um, in Paris, in New York and in Paris, respectively, uh, which were these participatory grocery stores, um, with, where members had to sort of contribute their, with their work. To make, uh, to be consumers, to be able to consume in the, in the stores. Um, the idea was to bring some kind of version of this to Lisbon and to have People being involved in their food production, food consumption and food production, uh, and also created, creating a sort of more connection, uh, more close-knitted connection between food production and food consumption, a more direct link, let's say. And, and this was sort of the initial impetus of the thing, but it, it pretty much was just the starting, uh, the starting phase because, uh, The idea was that you wanted to, as we started getting together and talking about doing this project, that You, you were, you, one of the most important aspects was to building that of building a community and that of, of reconnecting neighbors. And so as you were doing this, as you were creating a community that would be involved in a particular project, you realize that you could do this. With any other project that this was a great method to get things going, especially because, uh, we were already, we were getting very specialized sort of creating working groups and it was, uh, then COVID hit. So we had a lot of time to meet online as well. Um, there was also this, uh, this needs to connect to people in a, in a period where we were very isolated. And so through this understanding, we kind of saw that, uh, we could have this approach for other projects. And so that's why, um, first of all, we wanted to, we looked for organizational forms, legal organizational forms where this buying group, let's say, would take place. And we found out, um, some of us already knew I'd been interested in cooperatives, uh, for some years. Um, and this was a very interesting model because legally it allowed you to sort of reproduce this collaborative aspect of, uh, of equal neighbors getting together, which is the principle of one member, one votes of cooperatives. And, but, but we had known of some other experiences in Catalonia and in Portugal's Alentez region as well, which were of integral cooperatives. And these were a much more recent type of cooperative which had created an organization which was a multi-sectorial, what we call it in Portugal legally, multi-sectorial cooperative. Meaning that the cooperative does not just do one particular, um, activity, economic activity, but it does a variety is open to doing a variety of economic activities in different sectors. Um, as long as the members are the ones that are driving that forward. Um, and so we opted for this model of creating, um, a cooperative, but that there would be multi-sectorial, um, an integral cooperative, and it would house this first project, which was the participatory grocery store. Um, and so we started working on that, but we already had the legal form, the integral cooperative to. Then develop other projects which happened over time and uh, and we can tell you about. You mentioned it's a participatory retail store. I'm curious what you mean by participatory. What does that involve as far as the running of the store and how that's stuffed? I will come to that question, but let me give you a little bit of a local perspective on Rizoma. So, um, we started, João was saying, a group of friends, we were around thirty people, um, and when we opened, like, legally opened Rizoma, um, we were around thirty people, we had We didn't really have a lot of money. It was just a few thousand euros. And one of the things that I think it was crucial for Rizome is that since the beginning we started to implement a little bit Um, or started to create our, our network. And it was important for us because we didn't have a lot of money. We didn't want to have fixed or a lot of fixed costs. So we talked to a few associations. And one of them had a space that was free and so they kind of said, okay, if you want to start your project, you can start, you can start here. So we, we had since the beginning, uh, um, or for the first year we had a free, uh, a free space where, and this was very important because then we could We could start focusing on other things and not only thinking about will we have money enough for the next month? Will we have money enough for the next month? And, um, mentally this was very helpful because it, it allowed us to start, um, this idea of inter-cooperation, um, help us to start thinking about Or testing our shifts if they were good or not, if we could start test the products that we are selling. It also helped us to start our governance model and we could start testing all these things in the first year until we reached 250 members. And the shop we had was really super small. It was like forty square meters. It was really, really small. And then, then that's when we, we thought, okay, maybe it's time, uh, it's time to move from this place and find, um, something bigger. Now we, our store is, uh, 400 square meters. Yeah, in three, in three, um, three levels, yes. Um, it's not, not, uh, Grocery shop, it's only 120 square meters. The rest is for the other projects, which was also important in the model that we wanted to develop because the first one was only possible to have a grocery shop. And then in the places that we're looking for, we had already the vision that, okay, Rizome is much more than the grocery shop, so we need also the space to accommodate whatever the members want to develop as their own projects or collective projects. Um, so the space needed to fit also, um, also the, the, the, what, what we wanted to do as a, as a collective. So, you were asking about how our grocery shop is participatory. It is participatory in a way that the members can decide whatever they want to buy. So you can propose, okay, I would like to have this product or I don't, I really do not agree with this product because it violates some moral standards or Whatever the member thinks it's, it's not, uh, it's not okay for him. Um, it's, it's run by the members. That means they do the shifts. So we do the shifts, uh, And, and just to have an idea, this is one of, this is one of the big challenges of Rhizome is that we have around 400 people per month doing shifts. So logistically, Sorry, you're saying you have 400 people a month that are coming in and supporting your shop, not just as consumers, but actually in the running But doing, yeah, doing shifts, yeah. Yeah, so we have, so the model we have is that we have a three-hour, a three-hour monthly shift if you want to be a member of the consumer section, which is the one that houses the grocery store. So if you want to buy in the grocery store, you have to at least give three hours of either being at the till or stocking up the products or cleaning the grocery store or being behind the counter at the, on the cafe. Um, so this is the basic requirement, let's say of a member to, to buy is this, this is the participatory, let's say minimum. But then we have other participatory or other participation methods of, for members. They can be involved in working groups. As Bernard was saying, there is the, the products working groups, um, which kind of manages the, the, Manages the deliveries and the and the orders of the products and so on and the stock offering in general and but then then there are all other sorts of. Of, uh, working groups in the cooperative as a whole. And you can also participate freely in those. So they are open, uh, open working groups for any member to join. And this is how we started to structure even before we had created the cooperative. So then it was just a question of putting this into the cooperative, this sort of, uh, This participatory governance structure and really action structure or activity structure because it's a daily thing. Um, what this was from the start in the cooperative. And we made sure that we had the regulations, that the internal regulations and the bylaws, they included this. And let me add just one short thing here. And the reason why we have people doing shifts, it's first of all because it's the, well, The best way that we know so far, uh, how to integrate people and how to make people know each other. And it's incredible how many friendships have developed inside the Rizome. I think it's one of the biggest. Successes from Rizoma is how many people actually do things outside, like going to concerts, having dinner at each other's houses. Uh, helping each other. I, I think it's one of the biggest successes of Rizoma is, is how this, this kind of, uh, family, uh, family, uh, friendship groups, uh, then, uh, Created and developed outside. It sounds like you've, you've generated a whole community out of your business, uh, within your neighborhood of, of friends and this new This little, this little, well, not so little, I guess, I was gonna say a little family, but how many members do you now have, if you don't mind saying? You said thirty originally were the founding members when you started five years ago and five years later, how have you been able to grow that? Um, we, we don't really have a recipe. I think the, the place where, where we are, um, it's, um, It helped a lot Rizoma to develop quite fast in terms of members. But you cannot just come to Rizoma and say I want to be a member. You need, you need to, first of all, you need to do, um, a welcome session. Um, it's, it's, it's the way to enter Rhizomo because we also want to be sure that the people know where, what they are getting in and understanding that if they Come to Resoma, there's this whole, uh, idea behind it and, um, and these are also your responsibilities. And, and this is also one of the challenges of, um, And because we are growing, we grew very fast from thirty to 900, more or less. Um, so it's important that people understand that tourism is not just a place to hang out. It's not a regular association. There are, there are responsibilities. Because you are a member, but you are also an owner. You are a buyer. You can also be a prosumer. So there are many things that relate to this idea of participating in a cooperative. I think this, what Bernard was saying now, the different roles that you can have as a member, I think that's, that's one of the keys to have, uh, many different people being interested in joining in for different reasons. And the, the fact that we are an integral cooperative, as I was saying, gives this, um, gives this much more strength because. Uh, people will join perhaps, and as has happened, people will join for the coworking space that we have, for example, which is a project and they will notice the grocery store, um, downstairs and they will also become a member. Of the grocery store and start doing ship there, or they will hear about the, um, the self-employment project in the services section. And we'll join that where, where you can sort of collaborate in. People that are self-employed collaborate in sharing the different resources that usually you need as an independent worker and also putting your accounts together in the cooperative so we have an accountant, we have the The financial management is done by the cooperative and you can focus on your job, for example. Although this is a reason so people are, the independent workers are very involved in In setting up this, uh, this system, but they, they join for this and maybe they see, oh, there's a coworking space as well. So I'll join the coworking space. Um, and, and so, and so on. So this is a, one of the reasons I think, because the majority of members are in the consumer section, about half, I would say of members, but then we have members from other, from other projects as well. And of course the consumer section will have, it's easier, it's a lower barrier to join because everybody needs to consume food and so there is interest in that right away. And three hours of a shift a month is It's not a great price to pay and people even enjoy doing it, most of the people that do it. I bet, because you're part of a community and you're amongst friends and not just colleagues, but people who have a shared sense of that, that stake in that community business and that cooperative business, which sounds amazing. And, and you've, you've made to, you've managed to diversify the business sectors that you're in then. So beyond, as you've grown from thirty to 900, do you say members? And you really diversified the amount of sectors that you're now operating in, I guess. So you mentioned a co-working space. You mentioned that you're in grocery retail. Um, so what are the, what are the range of different sectors that you're now, you're now reaching into? So we have, as I was saying, the Portuguese cooperative law divides through branches and has specific branches that are in the legislation. And the ones we started with were consuming, consumers, um, cooperative, uh, agriculture, culture, services, which is the more, the most broad one and housing. Um, and now we expanded to crafts, crafts, uh, production, crafts, uh, um, which is a branch in the Portuguese law. Um. And also commercialization, which is for, if you want to do larger distribution, which we are not doing yet. And so these were the starting ones, but these are just, and the cooperative was divided along these branches through sections. So we have the housing section, the consumer section, the services section, and so on. Um, some sections have more than one project. So the services section, for example, has the co-working project. We have autonomous projects. So members get together and they create their own, uh, project. Um, for example, Bernardo and me and, uh, a few others, uh, a few other members from services section, we just created this, um, Malha Cooperativa, which is a research and training project within Rizoma. So that we, we provide training, uh, training services and research projects as well. Um, and so, and you have in culture, in the culture section, for example, you have a film production, a project of some members that were already. Um, already sort of had a collective, but needed this, uh, a legal structure and they joined his own and the cultural section. So they have their own project. And again, these, these projects are independent within the cooperative, but then they collaborate in. In different aspects, they either share resources or material or they engage directly in projects together. And this is the idea of the integral cooperative. It's basically this. That's incredible. And I just, I love it. That sounds, it's incredibly diverse. It's incredibly inclusive. And yeah, just amazing. And I was reading that you were originally influenced by a book That was written by two French philosophers from about, um, almost sort of fifty years ago. And could you tell, tell me a little about About that book and without getting too much into the philosophy of it, um, how did that, how did that impact the formation of Rhizoma? Um, to, to be, to be honest, I don't remember how, how it was because the beginning we had like a lot of different names and then we somehow we, we Came to an agreement that Rizoma was the name and we usually we define the Rizoma name In a botanical sense and not so much in the philosophical sense of the laws. And this idea is very important to us as Joan was explaining how the project somehow developed. I think one of the big ideas of rhizomas is that they develop under the earth and then they sprout in Places that are in a way unexpected and they develop from there. So it means that you don't put a seed somewhere and it will grow only there. You don't really know how it's going to come together and how it's going to sprout. And I think this is a very foundational idea or even philosophical idea from From rhizome and also I wanted to add that one of the things that were most important for us in the beginning and it's that The grocery shop allows a big political change in terms of your mindset because if you have control over your products, over what you buy and what you can buy, That means that you can ask the questions that you want to ask. And that means that you can control the answers or you can get the answers in a transparent way. And if you go to a normal, regular supermarket, you know maybe where this vegetable or this fruit is coming from, from which country. Um, but you, you don't have the possibility. Ah, okay. I want to know the name of the person that produced this. I, maybe I even want to go there and visit him. Or maybe I want to contact directly the company that is producing whatever it is. And I can decide if I want to have that in my shop or not. And this brings us now to a big challenge. For example, And one of the challenges is how can you control external influence, for example, political context in the inside of the A cooperative, in this case, inside of Rhizome. And this is very, very simple, for example. Now, um, with, um, for example, with, with the war, um, we, we want, or some people say, no, I really don't want this product from this specific country. I really cannot enter in a shop that has this and this. And then it's very interesting how we navigate all these tensions because it creates a big The big tension inside what we want or what we decide that commonly we agree it's what we want to sell and what we want to buy. So it's very, it's very interesting how all these dimensions, external dimensions, impact internal dimensions, and then how This, um, how we came up with a, with a solution for it. Because, I mean, because we, you have the space, it's, you have a space of debate and discussion. That would normally not be there in a, in another type of business. And this is something that I think is very powerful in generating energy in members to do things. Um, so it's not only you have opinions on things, it's actually you have a forum where you can discuss them and where you can act on them. And this is what I think is the strongest aspect of cooperatives. Um, and this kind of cooperatives particularly. So, so to go back to the image of the rhizoma, the rhizoma itself grows horizontally. So it's a root that grows horizontally. And it is the, it's the root that sort of gathers the nutrients as it grows, that gathers the nutrients that are required for the sprouts to grow or the, or further roots to solidify. So Rizome is sort of this reservoir of nutrients and it's this, the cooperative itself is also a reservoir of this member energy to move forward with projects. This is why we wanted to set it up in this way. That's incredible. That's uh, I love that metaphor of the resume and yeah, it works so well. Um, In representing how cooperatives are structured, how they grow, and that sort of flat structure, but also the organic nature of it. And yeah, it's a beautiful metaphor. I love that. Thank you. This is the thing about the integral cooperative is that, so each section is, as I was saying, has their own, um, assembly, their own general assembly, let's call it, we call it sectorial assemblies. And, and those occur monthly. So every month members of a section, at least the consumer section is, does this every month. The others depends a bit on activity, but most, most of them are monthly. Um, so they do it every month. You can, You can have, uh, you can have your say, you can submit proposals to this assembly. On the grocery store, for example. And, but then you have the working groups, which again are more of a day-to-day basis and people can join the products working group right away, for example. And affect decisions and be a part of the discussion there. It requires more work, of course, and more, more time, but there's that possibility. Um, and then in terms of, uh, of examples, I remember very well, this was the first year even where we had a big discussion about the affordability of prices of affordability of the products. And because we were, we were ordering direct to, um, to, to farmers, but some of the, we, we could not, um, we could not see right away the Right away the benefit in terms of prices because we had the initial setup costs as well and also the The fact that these products were from smaller producers, so the prices that they had to sell were a bit higher than you would normally get in mass, um, in mass industrial agriculture, for example, um, where you get very low prices, but that's very bad, uh, ecological practices. Uh, and so there was a focused discussion of, and this was started by members that were not involved in the, in the products, uh, working group. But they were complaining about the prices. And so there was a special task force set up to kind of address this issue. And so with time, we were able to create a few essential products. We call the essential product list. That were, we had to have a price that was either equal or lower and most of the time lower than the, than you would have in the, in the normal chain, the supermarkets, for example. Um, and so this was possible through member action. And, and again, the prices, we have all the prices, um, some members wanted this from the start to have transparency in prices. And so all the prices you go down to the grocery store, you have in the stickers, you have exactly where, where the money goes to. So this goes to the producer, this goes to taxes, this goes to the surplus that we need to run the store, for example. So each product has their own, uh, margin for, for example, I mean, we have guidelines of course, but you are, you know, each margin for each product. And we also have a value list for each product. So we set up a list of, I'd say, seven values. Let's give an example, Fairtrade, Organic, there are seven of them and then also the distance. So, you know, is it... Less than thirty kilometers, is it more than 100 or more than 500? I'm not sure if these are the real numbers, but it's kind of in this way. So you know when you buy, you can choose if that's a concert. If you can choose in conscience if this is what you really want to write. Wow. That's an amazing idea. That's so good. Why do, why do most stores not do that? You know, that's, I love that. That's because they don't want to answer what we want to ask. Exactly. And that's why this is very important. Just one more example, sorry, I forgot. And you had another example of member influence. We had also the, now, um, the, we decided to have, there was a debate also in the, in the cooperative in the past, uh, Um, in the past year about the genocide in Gaza and we decided to have the, uh, store, the grocery store be, um, be, uh, free of, uh, Of products from that are benefiting from the occupation and from settlements. So, uh, we decided to have a BDS approved, let's say, um, grocery store in that, uh, the products are checked for that. And so this was also, again, a member-initiated proposal. And all these things, they are decided in this way, most of them in Rizoma, is that members can get together and they can make a proposal. And this was from the start. Yep, I wanted to, um, come back if you, if you feel that this is not so important, so you can, you can. Um, but it's, it's about, um, it's about our, how the organization is structured in terms of decision making. Um. So as Joan was saying before, um, the first place where members can come together are the working groups, so that's where all the operational work Happens. And it's on a volunteer basis. And then the members get together in the working groups, they can choose to Or if they see there is something that they want to change or improve, that they can make a proposal. And we have, we have, like, a A way to to do proposals and this proposals and can go to the to the monthly meetings of each section, depending which section it is going to influence. So, so this is the first dimension of decision making. Then, um, then we also, uh, integrated in Rhizoma, um, a general meeting and the general meeting is when all the sections come together to decide things that will impact the entire organization. Because there are things that one section can maybe decide in terms of, um, uh, in terms of, uh, money or a specific decision that will influence everything. So it needs to be decided in, In the general meeting. And we created this structure in order to avoid as much as we can the legal structure that is imposed by the state. Um, which is, uh, having, uh, a board, having, um, uh, uh, the, the general assembly members and the, the supervisory, um, uh, council. And because this is, this was, uh, imposed by state and has particular rules, um, One of them is the one vote, one member, one vote. And although we believe that in at least in Portugal is the it's the most democratic way to to decide things. We wanted to go a little bit further in Rhizoma and that's also a big space to experiment on On, um, on consent. So every decision we, we, we take are based on consent and, um, this means, um, that all these levels of decision are, uh, are based on this, on this method that we brought from sociocracy. We kind of brought a few, a few tools from sociocracy and then adapted to our own, to our own system. Yeah, and this can be very funny sometimes. It also brings some challenges because sometimes it can also generate a little bit of frustration with members because If we invest so much time in developing a proposal and presenting it to the cooperative, sometimes it doesn't go through and it can be only one member that for some reason Uh, doesn't think that this proposal is good enough or safe enough to try. Um, so we need to rethink it again. And, uh, and this is, and people are Are not used to, to, to the idea that sometimes you need to go slow on things. You don't need to, you don't need to accept the social acceleration that is outside the rhizoma. But, uh, many, many of, uh, of the things that affect you on a daily basis, you also bring insight. So you also want to rush things maybe and, um, Then you need to slow down sometimes and it can create some tension, which is very fun. But I guess that democratic participation, uh, like you're saying, that democratic accountability drives or can drive performance improvement because it, like you say, it forces you just to go, actually... Our members want us to rethink this or we're not completely selling it to all members. So let's go back and have another go. And most importantly is that, uh, when, when you use the vote system, you are automatically excluded. Uh, 10%, 30%, 20% of the members. And, and the idea is that Maybe the, the, the proposal is not the best in the world, but it's, it integrates the members. It doesn't automatically exclude some members because you voted no or whatever. And, and then suddenly there is a group of people that is not part of this decision and we want to avoid that at all costs. Right. Yeah. That makes sense. That's great. Thank you. And one of the things I was really keen to talk to you about is the UN International Year of Cooperatives and It's all about promoting the benefits of cooperation and giving cooperative businesses that opportunity to learn from each other. And I was just curious as to what you think that other co-op businesses could learn from Rhizoma. Well, I mean, first of all, I think that it's important to remember that cooperatives, one of the principles of cooperatives is inter-cooperation. So cooperatives, cooperation among cooperatives. And we can all always learn from each other. And I think cooperative should always try to strive for creating this cooperative network of different types of organizations, different types of cooperative organizations. And see how they can collaborate, how they can learn from each other. In Rizome, I think what's different is mostly this integral cooperative model, which exists in other cooperatives here in Portugal and has sort of spread across the country. Uh, in the past few years, um, which is, has been great to see and each of them in their different way. But this idea of decentralization, this idea of, uh, more of a sociocratic or continuous participatory Governance and this idea of having members being responsible and. Accountable for their actions and given the space to have initiative and take initiative to move projects forward rather than having this more hierarchical traditional model, which many cooperatives still have. And again, we in Rhizoma, we have this, we have the legal Obligation to have a management board and supervisory council and so on, and we have those, but we try to integrate them as much as possible to these more continuous, um, governance bodies, such as working groups and coordination circle. Um, so I think that's one of the things, um, but then for sure, I mean, his own has also a lot to learn. From, uh, from other organizations and, and we try, we try to connect, uh, we try to connect with as much organizations as possible in this area as well. Um, for example, we just, we've just been to a few of us from this project I was telling about Malha Cooperativa. I've just been in Barcelona now and we met a couple of different, a few, a bunch of different cooperative businesses such as Uh, research, uh, cooperatives, uh, bank, a banking cooperative. Um, we met the local, uh, what they call at the new cooperative, which is the, the, um, Sort of a body, a local municipal body that foments and encourages and supports cooperative, setting up cooperatives and cooperative businesses in Barcelona. And so a bookstore, we met a cooperative books. So we are, I think it's very important to create this, and especially in this year of the International Year of Cooperatives, the UN International Year of Cooperatives. That we connect with other experiences in different contexts and we can learn for sure a lot in that way. And I think also it's very important in three years ago, Rizoma helped to create the net, the Portuguese network of integral cooperatives. Um, we are around twenty cooperatives and we meet annually. Uh, it's usually between eighty and 100 people. Um, and yeah, to discuss. What kind of problems each property has, where do we need help, and how we want to develop as a network so that we can support each other. Um, and this in supporting means, um, because in Portugal is also very difficult to find a lawyers and accountants that are specialized in cooperatives. Um, and, um, and this network actually, uh, does a little bit of this work, not, not legally, but, uh, it helps navigate, um, Bureaucracy and law and sometimes just small things how to solve. Um, I know something in the website or something in the shifts or it doesn't matter. It's, it's the support. And if, I guess, if you're a small business, if you're a small cooperative business that's only just starting out and you, you're going to need to ask those questions and having that body of expertise of other co-optive businesses like yourselves to be able to go to. That's, that's an invaluable resource. Or the first question is how to create a cooperative. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, thank you. And my final question just to, uh, to ask is about whether you Have anything that you could advise any entrepreneurs who are looking to set up their own business? How we can convince them that the cooperative model actually Um, is one that they should be considering as they, uh, as they look at setting up, because as we've talked about, there's so many benefits to it. And I hope that more entrepreneurs think about cooperation and cooperative model. For themselves, what advice would you have? How can we convince new startup businesses to look at cooperatives for them? Well, I mean, I would say that this depends a little bit about what you want to achieve. What do you, what do you want to do? What are your goals? And if your goal is to take an idea, um, Have, maintain all control of how it will be applied in the world. Try to control what other people do. Maybe you need to, what other people do to apply it in the world. Maybe you need to hire people to do it your way. Um, while you kind of assume some of the risks and will, will benefit from most of the rewards, then a traditional company is probably the best way to do that. But if on the other hand, what you want to do is to get a group of people that want to get together and improve some aspect of their lives and want to do it as a community. And wants to share the risks, but also the rewards equally. Um, then a cooperative, I think is the most appropriate, uh, answer. And it's something that creates beyond the, beyond the economic, um, activity that will, that it will, that it will produce. It creates something else. It creates social cohesion. It creates community. And these things that I think is something that we have to, um, kind of link back together. Economic activity to social cohesion and community organizing and community building. I think cooperative is the best way to do that legally. It's the one that ensures this principle of one member, one vote. Um, but at the end of the day, the important part is not necessarily the legal form. But the, the, the cooperative principles itself, themselves. So the, the, the idea of cooperation. Uh, the principles of the, of the seven principles of, uh, um, the international cooperative alliance and how you best, uh, Apply those or realize those in an organizational form. And sometimes, and maybe, maybe for, it depends on the legal framework in your country or in your region. So maybe. Some other legal forms such for example, I know in the UK, there's this community interest company. Maybe it's something that can be useful for particular purposes. Maybe it's an association. Maybe it's, maybe it's a company that has, you know, participatory methods, um, and it's bylaws and regulations. So it's not the legal form itself. It's the principle I think that is most important. And for us, it was the legal. The legal form of the cooperative was the one that was, uh, that fit the most with our values and what we wanted to do. Fantastic. That's amazing. Thank you both so much. Uh, that's, it's been incredible talking with you both. I really appreciate your time. And if listeners want to find out more about Resoma, uh, and support you, what can they do? Where can they go to find out more? Yeah, so we have a website, rhizomacoop.pt, rhizomacook.pt, and then we also on social media, Instagram, LinkedIn, you can find us through Rhizoma Cooperative and Facebook. And Facebook probably, yeah. Fantastic. Fantastic. We'll put those details into the show notes so that people can find out those directly and can come and find out more about you. Thank you both so much for your time today. It's been incredible talking with you. And yeah, look forward to seeing everything that you're up to in 2025. Thank you. Thank you so much, Paul. Thank you for inviting us.

00:42:54 Paul Robinson: That was João and Bernardo, and I don't know about you, but I took away so much from that chat about Rizoma in Lisbon. I loved that their cooperative was established not that many years ago and yet it was done with the purpose of providing their community with access to quality locally sourced produce. Which has so many parallels to the story of the Rochdale pioneers 180 years ago when they founded their co-operative society with similar goals in mind. The most striking thing I learnt was their use of the participatory model to get their community involved in the process of food consumption so they had a better understanding of what it took to bring their food from farm to fork. And of course they've managed to grow from thirty founding members to 900 and from a forty square meter store to a 400 square meter store and have kept their members thoroughly involved along the way. Amazing stuff. And I hope you enjoyed hearing their story as much as I did. So that's the first episode of listener owned complete. I would love to know your thoughts and to get your feedback. You can text me straight from the show notes or you can email me listenerowned at icloud.com. What are the cooperatives you think I should feature in future episodes? What are the success stories I should be highlighting? Please also get in touch if you would like to get involved in the show yourself. I shall be back next week talking about more cooperative success. Do please join me. Until then, please remember to support your local co-op and keep cooperating. Goodbye.